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Transcript

SPEAKER A

Welcome back to season two of the Ivy League Prep Academy Podcast. Equipping you to successfully pursue the college of your dreams. We believe everyone deserves to reach their full potential, and the admissions process shouldn't hold you back. I am really to have Dr. Aviva Leggett with us today. Dr. Leggett has been in your shoes, and she understands how to get you where you want to be. She attended a top tier school. She worked as an admissions officer for an Ivy League school, and she's now the founder of Ivy Insight, which successfully helps students earn admittance to Ivy League and other top tier schools. She's written a book, which I've just finished reading. It's fantastic. It's called Get Real and Get In, which I just love the name. Dr. Leggett, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER B

Thank you for having me, Steve. I'm excited to speak with you today.

SPEAKER A

Yeah, so fun. So let's just start with the title. I really love it. Get real and get in. Why is it so important for high school students to get real?

SPEAKER B

That's a great question, Steve. So my book is really all about the high school students journey to figure out who they are and what they want on the way to college, and that that is ultimately the purpose of the college application process. So Getting Real is really all about getting in touch with what really motivates you and what's driving you towards your goals and helps to empower you with that mindset of focus and success so that you can get to where you want to go for college and beyond.

SPEAKER A

Yeah. Beautiful. To me, it has a connotation that I love, like, deep within my soul, and that is this. Everyone else is trying to get into top tier schools by doing the same things as everyone else, but doing them better and oftentimes. There's a facade there. There's a, oh, my dream school is looking for this kind of person, so I need to go do those kinds of things, but I need to do them better than everyone else. And it's not real, right? It's this face that we put up, a mask that we put on, believing that that person that we're becoming is more valuable, more valuable to the university at least, than the real me. And that's why I have to become that person. Do you feel like it has that connotation at all?

SPEAKER B

I think that that's true. I would say that getting real is really getting in touch with what you're saying, what is really driving you and not just trying to mold yourself into somebody else's shoes and try to do ten backflips instead of their eight backflips, but really to figure out your own new gymnastics move that you can patent and make your own. So that's really the goal behind my book, is to inspire people to look at this college admissions journey differently, to use it as an opportunity to get creative to really focus on what they want so that they can work meaningfully towards their goals.

SPEAKER A

Yeah, so good and such an important message. And that brings me to the introduction to the book. So I've read the book. It's phenomenal. I highly, highly recommend it to my listeners. You begin by explaining what you call the impressiveness paradox. Can you talk about that for a second? What is that?

SPEAKER B

Sure. So as we were just referring to, it's very easy for high school students and their parents to fall into the trap of, well, I know this cousin or this friend who got into Harvard, and they simply want to replicate or try to replicate what that child did. And the reality is that if a student is choosing things based on what they know somebody else did, more than likely the things that they're choosing are not authentic or meaningful to them personally. And so when you apply to college and you don't have anything exciting or interesting to say about yourself or about your activities, that's when the impressiveness paradox comes in. Because you're trying to be impressive by copying other people and doing what you think you're supposed to do, but you're actually not impressing anybody because you're simply a cookie cutter version of all the other applicants.

SPEAKER A

That's so good. And the example that you used in the book, I think, is so relatable to high school students out there. And that is when you see someone on Instagram that's just trying too hard. Right. They're just trying too hard to impress you. And what happens is it's not that impressive anymore. It has to be this authentic experience that you say, wow, that person's doing something really cool. That's very interesting. They've really taken this to an interesting level. They've got a story to tell and a story that I want to hear. That's where college admissions officers feel authentically and genuinely impressed in the student as opposed to the person trying trying too hard on Instagram.

SPEAKER B

Exactly.

SPEAKER A

Well, here's a quote I want to read to you. This is also from the introduction. It says here's, one thing about high school, it's hard to discover who you really are because there's so little time to actually figure it out. So I agree with you. I agree with the statement. My question for you, if you're up for it, is why is it so important to figure out who we really are?

SPEAKER B

Well, in this question of college, figuring out who we are is really paramount. And I argue in the book, college admissions is really part of that journey that can push us to become who we're supposed to be. So in terms of figuring out who we are, all of these learning experiences you have at school, these challenge, these stretch experiences, they are what tests our character and our potential. And so if we really lean into those experiences, then we're going to make the most of them, whether our dream school works out or whether another plan ends up happening. So being true to yourself and figuring out who you are is paramount to your own journey. Because if you are acting on your own intuition and you are leaning into the things that really matter to you, then you're going to wind up in the best possible situation, whether that's the college of your choice eventually. The career of your choice. Or maybe you're somebody who takes off a year or something and does service in another country for a year. Just something that inspires you. All of these different choice points we have along our journey can help to shape our ultimate impact. And so when you're making these decisions about what you want to do, you want to keep in mind what's true to you and what feels right, would.

SPEAKER A

You say then that I don't know, just listening to you, I get the feeling that you would say, let's say that my dream school was Caltech or UC Berkeley or whatever. Imagine that UC Berkeley, because of something related to COVID or whatever, they just decided not to admit anyone for the next four years. And so it was completely off the table. Would you still want to do the activities that you're doing now? Would you still want to be engaged in the same way if it wasn't for college admissions? Is that kind of where you're going with, or am I understanding your perspective correctly?

SPEAKER B

I think that would be a fitting hypothetical for some of the ways that I'm thinking about this. Because if you're living in your journey authentically, then you're going to end up where you're supposed to be in the best possible way. And so many kids have been impacted. All kids have been impacted by this and disrupting their educational journeys. But a lot of kids have really done amazing things during this time, whether it's make face shields or start up new online platforms, conduct research with a professor. So there's always opportunities to make the best of your situation even when your situation is not the best.

SPEAKER A

Yeah, beautiful. And college admissions then can be the impetus to be a better version of yourself rather than the game that you try to play to manipulate the system because you think that your success hinges on admissions to a specific or admission to a specific school. So use that kind of impetus. Use the motivation that you want to do your best because you want to prove that you can get to a good school. Use that to be your best self. And then don't worry about if it's that school or another school. If you're your best self, you're going to rock at whichever school you end up at.

SPEAKER B

Absolutely.

SPEAKER A

So I loved you. Kind of talked about how people are responding to the challenge of a worldwide pandemic, and in five years, someone might listen to this episode. And there's a different real serious issue. And certainly years ago, people, high school students have been through other very serious issues before on a micro scale and on a macro scale. And I love how you say, look, we've got opportunities to show that we step up around these challenges. And so with the Face Shield example or online platforms and online learning, I love that. And I love how college admissions can bring out the best in us as opposed to bringing out the worst and the anxiety and the stress and everything else. But a lot of people do feel stressed around college admissions and worry that they're not good enough, they're not doing enough. I want to ask you, as someone who has read the college admissions applications, right? You've been through hundreds or thousands of them. You've advised people through this process. You've now written a book on it. You are clearly an expert in every single aspect of this journey. What would you say is the greatest challenge that ambitious teens face regarding college admissions today?

SPEAKER B

I think it depends on whether you're talking about teens at the application phase of it or in the preparation phase. So I think in the preparation phase, a big challenge is the time and priority management. It's not easy to be yourself all the time when you have so many demands coming at you and you're just trying to grow up and have friends and get your homework done. And so figuring out what you want to do can feel like, oh, this is just like an extra thing that I need to do, but I am so busy with all these other things. So in the preparation phase, I think it's really that time and priority management, and I see that over and over again with people. I advise that this is such a challenge, even for the highest achievers, highest performers, they still struggle with it to an extent. And then for the application phase, I think what most people don't think about is that the narrative that you present in the application needs to be cohesive across what you write and what your recommenders write. And what I saw when I was in admissions is that so often the application falls short if you fail to represent yourself authentically and also if others don't know you well enough or they don't understand how you're presenting yourself, how you can get kind of a disjointed narrative through that application. So for the applicants, I'd advise you make sure you really know your schools well. Do research, talk to people at the schools, build connections so that you can really understand how the college fits you and personalize those applications. And then make sure your recommenders really know what you want to do and what you're targeting so that they can write their letters effectively to meet the goals that you've set.

SPEAKER A

Oh, it's so good. So you want a cohesive narrative, is the words that you used. And so that means that we're not confusing the admissions officer. They're not reading this and saying, I don't get it. This kid says that they're this, but here's the evidence that says that.

They imply that they're doing this and they want that, but are they trying to sneak in the back door so they can get into this program and use it anyway? You want to avoid all of that. You just want to be super clear about who you are, what your values are, what your mission is, how you've used your resources to do great things in your community or make an impact, and how you're going to continue to be yourself and to impact your community when your community becomes the university itself.

SPEAKER B

Exactly.

SPEAKER A

The clearer the better.

SPEAKER B

Absolutely. And the only way to get clear is to take time to really hone in on who you are and what you want to do.

SPEAKER A

Yeah, for sure. I love it. What advice would you offer to, let's say, a 14 or a 15 year old who's just kind of getting started thinking about university? Maybe they have an older brother or sister who's who's just gotten started, but as you say, they need to balance a schedule, figure out which universities they want to investigate on a deeper level so that they have this coherent message. What advice do you have where a lot of my listeners are in that age range, 15 or so years old? What advice would you give to them at this point?

SPEAKER B

Well, I would say first and foremost, think about what you might want to study in college. So you may only be aware of a couple of popular subjects like a business or an engineering degree. A lot of kids come to me, they see those are the things that they want. And then when you look under the surface, you actually well, their experiences are a little bit limited in that area, but they have all these other things. So I would encourage you as a young person to research college majors and how they're a little bit different from school subjects. So the way many colleges set up their academics is that these subjects kind of cross pollinate. There are many subjects within one subject, whereas in school it's like English, math, science. So I would encourage you to learn how the university thinks about academics and so you can learn about new fields of interest and potentially explore those fields either within the scope of your current classes or perhaps adding on different classes or extracurricular activities. So I'd say that's a huge part of telling your story effectively is knowing what you want to study. I don't usually recommend people apply undecided because undecided just might mean in a lot of cases, like I just really haven't thought about it. Obviously, you can never be sure exactly what your major is, and a lot of people change majors. But if you're one of those people who's not sure yet. I would advise you to at least research a few majors and sort of pick a preliminary one in your mind that you might want to target so you can learn more about it and see if it's actually interesting to you before you apply it's with your advice.

SPEAKER A

On the cohesive narrative. Right? I mean, you want to be telling a story that includes the university, so here's who I am and here's where I want to go.

SPEAKER B

Exactly. You have to know the audience. So I would encourage you to do research about majors. I'd also encourage you, as I said, to build connections with the college, whether that's a current student who went to your high school who's now at the college, an alum, a faculty member whose research or articles you find interesting. It could be a staff member at a resource center, like a religious life center or a cultural center or a community service center. There's a lot of ways that you can tap into the university as a high school student. And I would encourage you, even besides visits, just to look at what the resources are that you might take advantage of as a student of these colleges and reach out to people and see how it resonates, how conversations resonate with you. And the great thing about that is, once you go to apply, you have some real data points for your essay. So you have some good reasons. You have a narrative that will help you on your journey, and you yourself, as the applicant will be more informed and more confident in the schools that you're actually applying to. So I think that's huge. And then, of course, at school you have to do, well, I'm not telling you anything you don't know. And I would also encourage you to keep good relationships with your teachers and with your college counseling office so that they will support you when you are applying to college. And then the last thing is what I call the Build Your College Admissions x factor. X factor stands for experience, expertise and exponentialism. So experience is when you gain exposure to a topic, as I was describing, with researching different majors. Let's say you want anthropology maybe. So you think about reading some anthropology articles. That's experience getting exposure to something. Then let's say there's an aspect of anthropology that you're really interested in. Maybe you're interested in how groups form rules in coffee shops. So then you do an in depth study of a coffee shop in your neighborhood, and you publish that as a research paper. That's expertise. That's the second level of the X factor. The third level is what I call exponentialism, which is when you're taking your knowledge or experience and you're finding a way to give that back in a big way to other people. So that serves to not only enrich you as the applicant, but also to help other people. And I want to just sidebar a little bit. A lot of people ask me like, oh, do I have to do community service? And I say, no, don't just add hours to your resume. What colleges are looking for are service oriented people. And so if you are learning something and you're giving that back to people in the spirit of sharing and service, that is, quote, community service and what causes are looking for are engaged and caring and empathetic community members. And you can be that in many different realms.

SPEAKER A

Yes. So much gold in there. That was amazing. Thank you so much. And I want to maybe just highlight the fact that all of that research that you talked about in getting to know the majors that are available and then the professors and the research and perhaps reading those and contributing and finding a way to give back. If you begin researching universities when it's time to actually put pen to paper or now to type out your application as in senior year, you don't have time for any of that. So I love all of the things that you talked about and how much fun can that be if it's not stressful on a compressed timeline? If you have three weeks, that's really stressful. If you have three years, the sky is the limit. Go explore, go read a list of 100 different majors, 200 different majors at some universities, and just see all of the amazing things that the amazing possibilities that are out there. Because this can be a really enjoyable process if you have the time and you keep curious, right? If you stay curious, you're going to find something that fascinates you and you can go run with that. Of course, if you only have two weeks and you have to get everything done and you have to write essays and everything else, then forget about it. Nothing but stress, right?

SPEAKER B

Absolutely. And at that point, it's really all about focusing on the cohesive narrative. That's sort of all you can do at that point is just like try to make the best of what you've done. And still though, research those majors, find ones that fit you. And that's something I certainly help students with. Ideally, people come to us earlier, but sometimes we get kind of a rising senior who comes to us and we have to see, what did you do and how do we leverage it right, to work in the best possible direction for you and what colleges will find attractive. But if you can get ahead of this earlier and do this exploration earlier, then you have a better sense of where you're going and what opportunities are out there.

SPEAKER A

Absolutely. And it's so much more fun. Amazing. Dr. Leggett, thank you so much for joining us. Tell our listeners where they can find you. Of course, you have a book coming out and it's not quite out yet, right? It's coming right?

SPEAKER B

Tuesday, August 3. The book is coming out with St. Martin's Press. Get real and get in. You can find it at all the major retailers. If you go to getrealandgetin.com all the links to purchase the book are there. Can find out more about my work and about [email protected] and appreciate the chance to be here and to talk with you today. Steve, thank you.

SPEAKER A

You are so welcome. Thank you for joining us.